The Slawdawg Party?
This is a response to and from a new anonymous poster in the excite political forum who apparently wishes to form a political party that will deliver on the 'change' that Obama is claiming to offer.
The fellas nic is 'kslawdawg'.
I don't know if that is a reference to a coleslaw dog,,or if he is trying to project an association with kansas city law enforcement.Either way,,he calls himself,,kslawdawg while trying to project a persona he apparently thinks will entice folks to place some kind of faith in his stated cause.
I think it's rather funny,,but anyone who really wants to be active in changing the 'world of US politics' as we know it,,deserves to be scrutinized,,have their words dissected,,and be put throuh the proverbial wringer to squeeze the pertinent elements out into plain view so I engaged him on his stated platform which he claims will be a viable alternative to what we have now.
I didn't,,and still don't,,see any significant change compared to what we currently have.
And there is evidence of even less 'logic processing ability' and no evidence of more 'ethical integrity'.
Yet,,don't just take my word for it,,read the below for yourself.
The original threads (most recent first) can be found here:
http://boards.excite.com/jsp/topicview.jsp?va=1&tid=518087
http://boards.excite.com/jsp/topicview.jsp?va=1&tid=518040
http://boards.excite.com/jsp/topicview.jsp?tid=516509&fi=4172068
~You asked the following questions about my plan to form a VIABLE ALTERNATIVE to the 2 parties we have now.~
Well,,that's not the way you stated it.
All you did was talk about forming a political party,,I was trying to find out if it held to the logic you use to advance it to see if I believe it is viable.
yet,,,that doesn't change much of anything regarding my questions.
~The Fastest Growing block of voters are the independents.Many Many people have given up on the 2 parties because they lost sight of who and what they were supposed to represent.~
Which is the people,the spirit and the letter of our DoI and Constitutions.
~They have been hijack by various special interest groups, who do not share the same interests as mainstream middle class americans do.~
Well,,ya just lost a whole bunch of folks by going straight to an 'us - them' mindset generating phrase.Wouldn't 'the majority of Americans' have sufficed?
~There are many so called 3rd parties. But none of them seem to be interested in having a convention in which they all would come together and hammer out a platform, one in which they all could agree to and support.There is strength in numbers. Splintered they will continue to exist but will be just as uneffective as they are now.~
Well,,honestly,,isn't that simply an 'inherent problem' when dealing with trying to get 'independant minded' people to organize?
You know,,these kinds DO tend to be rather,,'independant' in their actions and beliefs.
Now,,will it help to 'unsplinter' them if one generates an 'us - them' mindset and use i to gather 'all those' that are tired of those politicos who show one of those yet allways claim they aren't one who does have an 'us - them' mentality?
~The Peoples Party, wants to be different from other parties, in that our main focus is organization thru a grass roots campaign.~
Uh,,that IS the heart of The Alinsky Model,,which is the title of H.Clintons college theses.
(Do you know who Alinsky is?A lot of politicians hold him in high esteem.)
So,,THAT concept is a big part of what is used by we have now.
~Todays politics put to much emphasis on money and not enough on solutions.~
Well,,it is not a surprise when MOST folks do so as well.
IOW,,that seems to me to be the way MOST Americans think.
Don't fix it,,replace it with new.
As in,,don't sweat it,,just throw money at it.
Do you think maybe that's why those kinds have held power so long?
Now,,given that,,how do you expect to get folks to think YOUR idea can accomplish anything with out 'amassing large amounts of fundage'?
~As far as I know it still cost nothing to vote in America which means votes are free.~
Are they really?
It will cost me a few thousand dollars,a trip to a 'rulers' palace and the humiliation of having to essentially bow to him to get to my 'right' to vote when I committed no act equal to the acts the constitution allows for political rights to be removed as way of punishment for.
What do you propose to do about that situation?
BTW,,there's a block of voters in a few states that are in the same situation.
~The money is used to manipulate the people, thru TV and Radio ads.~
So,,what is bad?The money needed to spend,,or the 'manipulation' of the people?
~Granted campaigns do cost money to run.~
Oh,,so it IS the money,,not the manipulation that you don't like.
~We want to try and change that,~
How?Changing minds?Or making it 'cheaper' to be president?
~one of the things we want to work towards is a National Primary, instead of what we have now. This should shorten the length of the campaign thereby making it cheaper. Cheaper means less money required which means less influence from the Large Multi-National Corporations.~
Why not just have a 'National Signup Day' for all who want to cast their hat in that ring?
~We also support Clean Elections and want to see every state adopt them.~
And exacly what are those,,or where can they be found so others can read them?
Or is it a catch phrase?
~We believe the less time candidates have to spend rasing money the cleaner the system will be from corruption.~
So,,eliminate the need for individual candidates to raise moey at all.
You are aware of that little box on Tax return forms that ask if you wish to donate a dollor or (?) to the presidential election fund?
Use that money for all candidates.
No contributions other than what is contributed through that.
All candidates get as much equal time through 'government channels' and media venues as can be paid for by THAT fund.
No more,,no less,,equal.
~Plus less time raising money means more time actually doing the work they were elected to do, and more time to listen to those who they represent.~
Well,honestly,,it really means they would have more time to devote to such.
It says nothing about them actually working or listening like they should.
~Now, let me try and answer your laundry list of questions:~
Considering the issue,,perhaps you may want to say something like:
Now, let me try and answer your questions.
After all,,snarkiness when questioned on policies,agendas and the details of implementating them,,from a 'hopeful political party organizer' is probally not a thing that folks would overlook much.
(my words)
~In a previous thread,,you posted what appeared to be a preliminary attempt at forming a new political party in our nation,,with yourself as the 'titular head'.
Now,,while I know you posted it as a 'broad appeal' to the group of folks that come through Excite and may read it,,I felt it needed to be met with a reasoned response from one of those folks it may be assumed you desire support,,politically and financially,,from.~
(yours)
~OK, first of all I am soliciting nothing from anyone.~
I addressed this above,,yes,,you are.
~I have not taken one dollar from anyone and if I could have it my way I never will, thats whats wrong with politics, and thats what we are trying to get away from.~
Then eleminate the NEED for money needed to run.
Forget only making it cheaper.
Allow unfettered equal access according to the amount ALL tax payers contribute.
~I'm sure at some point though it will become necessary to ask for contributions in order to keep the effort going. It would be nice if we could find volunteers from all walks of life to give their time for free to make this happen.~
You can.
Put it on their tax forms.
They 'dollars' allready come in.
Limit money used/usable to that amount collected each year and disbursed every four.
~That is all I am soliciting is volunteers at this point. I need one volunteer from each county of each state to get this started. I need professionals, in that we will need a web Master, Lawyers who are familiar with election laws of all 50 states, along with the F.E.C. requirements.~
~There are 3,141 counties or Parishes in the United States. Thats where the 3000+ number came from.~
And their time,effort and expertise IS equatable to 'money' that you want them to donate to 'the cause'.
It's easier for them to 'donate money' than it is to donate time.
THAT'S why most consider money a good thing to throw at problems.
AS a matter of fact,,many will donate much more money than time or effort.
And THAT'S how we got in this mess in the first place.
(That initial expectation,,is most likely what will prove to be the 'unviable' aspect of your 'grass roots movement',,imhsmellyo)
~I do not want to be the titular head of anything, just the spark.~
Tough noogies,dude.
You start it,,you carry the banner at the head of the group or shut up,sit down and forget it.
I do not speak for 'all independents',,I only speak for myself when I say,,'Too many bad moves and waylaid,high jackings occur due to machinations of those who want to be the 'spark/instigater' behind the movement as they do from those who wish to be the 'power BEHIND the throne',,but I bet a slew of them would agree with me n that.
IOW,,if YOU,,the 'designer' is afraid to drive the vehicle,,then you should NOT expect any one else to.
And chances are,,no one else will trust what YOU designed enuff to do so either.
~I do not do this for fame or fortune or for anything else. I do it cause I love this country and have 2 daughters who I want to make sure they have a better country than what we do, that offers them hope, and a opportunity to own the American Dream if they work hard for it.~
And there is the 'emotional associations' common to all politicians.
Generally used to 'assure' the public that the 'candidate' is a non threatening family guy who only wishes to look out for all those who can't look out for themselves.
~If all I get out of this is a footnote in a history book, I will be happy with that.~
oooopsie,,ya just contradicted yourself.
A footnote in the history books IS fame.
And aren't displaying pragmatic reasoning either.
If you wish to be able to successfully bring such a project together,,you BETTER want to get some fame.How else do you expect folks to know about you and your plan?
~I believe one man can make a difference though, and I have waited for that one man to come along, and I haven't seen him in the 47 years of my life. So I say if not me, then who?~
Some fella who doesn't display a willingness to contradict his immediately preceding statements in his very next statement simply in order to garner political support for his pet plan.
Someone who doesn't jump of the 'logic train' before it gets to the desired destination because their agenda didn't include going there in the first place.
You know,,some one different from the common kind who wants to be a politician.
~Do I stand by and continue to be a victim and do nothing and expect those who are responsible for getting us into this mess to make it better?~
Would making the mess better be accomplished using the same old tactics and displaying the same old mental gymnastics and ignoring of blatant inconsistancies in those offering the 'better plan' that the current set uses so consistantly?
~Or do I take matters into my own hands and try to make a difference, if nothing else comes of this, at least I can look my duaghters in the eye and say your daddy tried.~
Look,,I know that most would think that that sounds,,'oh so noble',,but I don't buy it.
It's the kind of phrase that could be considered a 'set up to obscure a planned failure'.
And even if it sounds decent,,again,,it's evidence of not following through on the logic.
After all,,if they were that knowledgable of the matter,,they may ask,,but daddy,,
,,why did you only try that?
,,why did ya quit trying?
,,why did it sound like just another bunch of campaign rhetoric like the others use?
~I can then go to my grave knowing that instead of doing nothing but bitching about whats wrong, I tried to make a difference.~
Sometimes,,that's all some folks get a chance to do.
Some can't even vote.
That's why some try to not 'bitch' but discuss and expose alternative lines of thought so that 'perhaps' a 'real' grass root movement with in the 'mass mind' of the nation can germinate,sprout and grow into the only kind of 'thing' that can change the political environment of the US.
And that is NOT a political pary.
It is a 'sea change' in what folks accept from those wanting to be elected to office and what they refuse to accept in the character and percieved personal convictions of those wanting to be elected.
~And there ya go,,the main reason why most change needed NEVER occurs.~
Huh?
Where'd it go?
Do you mean when folks just arranging to make it look like they tried to accomplish a betterment for all but simply quit after trying one thing that didn't seem to be fully thought through to a reasonably logical conclusion and was therefore not a viable alternative offering from the current found crapola?
If so,,I agree.
And that is why I am asking you about what you said.
So that you can see that it isn't fully thought through and needs some work.
After all,,the last thing we need is another screwy set of political pups trying to promote change that is no change.
~This is why I want volunteers, who are willing to do a little work for nothing, Our Forefathers volunteered and did what they did not for money, but for the chance of a better future for them and their children, they were true patriots in that they didn't do it for the money they did it for the country.~
Dude,,that's what THEY say now.
So,,ya gotta do better smehow.
Or at least don't focus on that as any thing other than what it is,,business as usual for political parties,,,and churches.
I suggest ya figure out a way of making it a matter of those folks getting some cheddar for their time and effort,,if they want it,,from the monies collected and disbursed like I mentioned above.
~Real change requires more than a slogan and showing up at the voting booth every four years voting for the lessor of 2 evils who got us into this mess in the first place.~
Yet,,wasn't it a matter of 'just such' that caused it to change into what we are currently afflicted by?
(some would be willing to bet it can only come with an invocation of the article that mentions an armed populace and an erroneous governmental ideology being dominant.Which may explain why there is so much political gnashing of teeth over that clauses intended meaning and inherent spirit.)
~To keep repeating the same mistake over and over again and expecting a different result is the definition of insanity.~
And here we go again with your round,round merry go round ride???
(my words)
~Complain?
I thought people were doing that allready.Without joining a party of some sort.~
(your words)
Yes people are complaining, and they are clamoring for a alternative to the 2 parties they have to choose from.~
Some are.
Most are simply accepting what's offered and treating it like a popularity contest rather than election of those who run our nations laws and affairs.
(kinda like an article I read that says chimps do so without considering fairness or equality,,let alone what's the best for all parties involved,,including themselves))
That's your first step.
Managing to get the majority to actually seek out,,not clamor,cry and complain that there isn't one,,but get them to believeing it's possible to find one if they will ONLY look hard enough.
~I want to give them that alternative.~
You can't.
It will come from them and will be of them,for them and about them.
And it will probally come through a man,,or woman,,who has it 'thrust' on them,,not one who 'concieved a plan' to attain the reigns.
You can only be another candidate who wants others to 'back your plan' for change.
And that means you are no different than what we have now.
Which YOU,,nor any member of the 'non elite',,can change,,unless the 'electoral college' is abolished and we get to elect the potus directly.
I know it's a conundrum,,but here's the lowdown on what you are facing in the 'quest' for a viable change in the political arena of the US:
How to change what needs to be changed without having to be a part of and follow the current system which is what needs to be changed before other changes can occur?
~I'm not asking you to join anything, I'm asking you to join a movement to make that happen.~
Uh,,there's another ooopsie.
You ARE asking me to join a movement,,which IS a political oriented group,,which IS a political party,,by definition.
Or,,as far as I am concerned,,a religion,,take your pick.
~If it turns into a party we will cross that bridge when we come to it. But that is the goal.~
See,,that is the goal,,but you say you aren't asking any one to join a party.
Do you see the inconsistancy?
The wishy washyness of a vaccilating set of statements that constantly contradict each other is obvious and plain to me.
And it is NO different from the currently comomn fare.
~The goal is also to get candidates to take the pledge of the party to runa campaign free of any donations from Corporations and not accept any contributions over $50.00 from any one individual.
~This doesn't impose on a persons freedom of speech if a candidate refuses to take more than $50.00 from anyone.~
Uh,,who would think it would?
IMHsmellyO,,that satement is oncongruous and not germaine to the issue at hand.
~That person could donate to the party if they wanted to doante more than $50.00. But a candidate could only accept $50.00 or less from any one contributor. No more of these $1000, $5000 a plate dinners.~
Which makes for a much more convoluted and contensious issue them just putting all monies in a 'group fund' to be disbursed equally to all candidates needs as the fund allows for.
~Thought that was pretty much self explanitory.......~
So did I,,that's why I asked about donation sources,,yet you rebutt with this:
~Once again, you seem to think that I am asking for donations, where are you getting this from? I am asking for VOLUNTEERS which is different than asking for donations.~
But,,I'll make sure you know why by showing you what you wrote:
~The main goal giving giving the people a voice in their government, and to restore COMPETENT, EFFIECIENT, REPRESENTIVE GOVERNMENT to this country, by wrestling it from the hands of powerful special interest groups who have a corrupting influence on our Government, with their donations.~
See?
What does this mean,,:
(~The main goal is giving government back to the people and the people a voice in their government,,yadayadayada,,by wrestling it from the hands of powerful,,yadayadayada, with their donations.~)
,,IF NOT,,'giving it back by,,wrestling it out of the hands of powerful special interests,,,,with their donations?
Yet,,even if I was confused by incorrect punctuation,this definately restates the concept:
~~By funding our party with nothing but personal donations, and asking candidates from our Party to sign the Clean Elections Pledge of accepting no campaign contributions from Corporations, or Lobbying Groups.~~
Personal donations are donations from persons,,aren't they?
(I'm a person,she's a person,he's a person,,wouldn't you like to be a person too?Or a politician?)
~This is a grass roots organization. My whole dream is to show we can do this without alot of money. It's the message that matters not the money. I think we have the right message, and hopefully so will all those who get a brochure outlining that message, and hopefully they will join our EFFORT to take back our Government from the special interests. ~
Yet,,your message is made totally ineffective,,and therefore nonviable by the same ol' message of,,'Send any party your money,,we'll make sure the candidate of 'our' choice get's in.',,that comes from the electoral college.
~Most Newspapers have a section in them where citizens write in letters to complain or to praise something in their community or about national politics. The original 3141 volunteers will read the papers look for the ones who complain and then mail them out a brochure.~
That is virually impossible unless you circumvent the avreage securty layers which seperate the info needed to do so from the readers of the newspaper.
IOW,,don't ya realize that they do NOT print full names normally and virtually never publish a 'return address' of those whose comments are published?
There is that 'incomplete trip' on the 'logic train' thing showing itself again.
~I want these people who write into the paper, cause I feel if they are motivated to take the time to sit down and write a letter to their paper then they will be motivated enough to work for change with us.~
But,,well,,you know you won't know where to mail the brochures to,,now.
~Think of it like a Amway organization. Some people will read the brochure and lay it down, and never do another thing with it. Others will go crazy and start contacting their friends, and family and asking them to get involved. They will go to the website print off a brochure and give it to their friends and so on and so forth.~
Which brings up the concept of focusing on spreading the 'word' via the web as being a much more viable idea rather than a venue which negates the chance of follow through with the very first step of getting them aware of the info.
~HOPEFULLY more and more people will become involved and we will become a bigger and bigger organization. As we become a significant organization we can start putting forth candidates from our party to run against the other 2 parties. The goal is to get organized in every county. ~
And that 'if we become a party bridge' is gotten to and crossed with nary a word nor even a polite nod regarding the 'issue' you essentially assured me would occur.
(remember?:~If it turns into a party we will cross that bridge when we come to it. But that is the goal.~)
Or was that just a simple example of 'politically motivated mental manipulation' that you say occurs thru tv and media ads bought by 'large monies' donated by special interest groups?
See,,you/they don't need no media to manipulate the masses,,all you/they need is some text printed out somewhere.
Where's the CHANGE,Obama?
~We need to get good candidates to run, at the state level as well as the national level. As we fill the State Houses with our Candidates and the House and the Senate we can start becoming a effective voice in our Government again. Once the people see our Candidates actually doing what they SAID THEY WOULD DO, then we would gain more and more members.~
Too late,,you blew that eventuality in this set of comments yo offered on the web.
~Our Core Belief is simple:
Country before Party, People Before Profits. That is what our candidates would follow as far as how they vote.~
Yada,yada,,that's common rhetoric.
Where's the change?
Where's the ability to get them out as soon as they show they are NOT doing so?
(my words)
~So,,a fellow that 'personally owns' a large corp can donate lottsa dough?
Like the old time tycoons did to/for Hitler?
(your words)
Nope, as I stated earlier, they could only donate $50.00 dollars to a candidate.
NO,,I believe you said you wanted the party candidate to NOT accept such,,not that they could NOT donate more,,here let's look:
That person could donate to the party if they wanted to doante more than $50.00. But a candidate could only accept $50.00 or less from any one contributor.~
Yep,,that's what you said.
Yet,,why not let folks donate as much as they want,,and the monies donated are disbursed evenly among all candidates regardless of party affiliation?
Wouldn't that totally eliminate 'special interests' influence?
(your words)
~It will take a common man like myself, to be able to understand what common Americans need and want, and the Peoples Party will open up the process to the Common man.~
(my words)
~Then how come you just stated a bunch of stuff that even a 'common man' can see is no different than what,,oh,,say,,Obama or Hillary,,or even McCain are saying?~
~This is different in that the candidates can ONLY accept contributions of $50.00. None from Corporations or special interests.~
What!?and disenfranchise corps interested in having a healthy political environment in the US?
Big mistake.
Pool and disburse equally according to numbers of candidates whitled down by individual states having run offs for their state using the 'pooled funds' collected for their states individual campaigns.
The 'winners' from each state then move on to 'public monies funded' nationwide campaigning leading up to a 'direct election' of the POTUS.
~As we become a REPUTABLE PARTY who is know for straight talk and free of any coruption, and we actually vote out anyone who would do anything to put a black eye on our reputation,~
Bad start,,IMHsmellyO.
~we will be able to get common people elected, cause it won't be the money that matters~
Money will still matter.
And 'special interests' will still be served via arranged contributions.
Nothing changes with your idea except a more severe discrepancy is built in the monies available for YOUR PARTIES candidate as opposed to others since you won't have the money to compete in the system as it operates CURRENTLY.
~but the party's reputation of honesty, and integrity, and efficiency and high moral standards, that will get people from our party elected. Not money.~
Honesty,,shot allready.
Integrity,,flamed out also.
Efficiency?As I pointed out,,it doesn't have that now,,and that's just the initial 'planning stage',,so it most likely would NOT have it later.
High moral standards?
In who?
Every body but you?
~I envision one day where all a person has to do is say they are a candidate from our party and it will get them elected cause the people know that we do what we say we will do and we represent the best interests of the people and the country over our own.~
That's what all other party pups widh would happen with their 'chosen ones'.
Where's the change in the goals of the people in the party YOU want to form IF the goals of the founder of 'the movement',,which the followers agree with and accept,,are exactly like the goals of CURRENT party leaders and political elite?
~There will be those who will join our party with alterative motives, and when we catch them we will deal with them swiftly by condemning them and banashing them from the party, Our reputation cannot be compromised, and I don't care who they are in the organization we will not tolerate it period.~
Boot yourself first,,or you're never gonna be taken seriously.
~This country is in need of real leadership right now, and we need to get back to basics, and restore our moral compass, and not let greed be our compass.~
Hey,,I can agree with that,,except,,,the 'leader' should be a 'servant'.
The people should 'elect him' DIRECTLY,,so that the will of the people is expressed.
Not the will of the people who can stay in power more than four years,,and only twice.
HE is supposed to represent US,,not them.
Untill that erroneous,,bass ackwards,,mindset is dispelled out of the minds of the individuals that make up the state,,then NO change for the 'benefit of the people' can actually occur.
I'd say we agree here, so theres no need to explain myself.~
Well,,what would you suggest should be 'party policy' regarding that issue?
~Hopefully this answers your questions,~
As you can see,,,generally,,like in science,,the answer to one question tends to give birth to two more.
~if you have any others, feel free to email me at a4thparty@yahoo.com~
Nah,,if you can't consider this 'public style venue' as a suitable place to conduct such business according to what you have laid out above,,then it exposes the non viability of the 4th party that you propose to form.
Besides,,you completely ignored a polite reasonable request from me allready:
(my words)
~Here,,read this:
It is a formula for 'societal/cultural' change that exposes how we got where we are,,and therefore exposes how to combat it.
https://royharbin.tripod.com/blog/index.blog/1667089/regarding-how-to-seperate-church-from-state/
And,,please,,a reasoned response regarding the issues and policies the article brings to your mind would be greatly appreciated and I believe,,give you an arena to display your 'political,intellectual and diplomatic' accumen.
As well as,,,whether or not you are in any way capable of the mental/verbal dexterity one would need to seriously consider throwing one's hat into such a political gladitorial event such as a nations 'presidential elections'.~
So,,thanx,,but no thanx.I will not email you with the questions asked in this missive nor any others.
Either conduct publicly,,or be seen as someone with something to obscure.
That would lead people to ask the question of,,'Where's the change?'
That would kill the 'validity and viability' of your movement.
Wouldn't it?
Sincerely,,and with all due respect to all on this planet,,
An uncommon common man,,
Roy Harbin
The DANG-DInGIE American
aka,, The Evil White Man
created: 3/31/08
©Roy Harbin/The DANG – DinGIE American/2007®
harbin336 is royharbin is roy l.harbin aka,,the dang-dingie american aka,,the evil white man
2008